Is Elderberry good for Gout?

[Dan]

Elderbery and Gout Discussion

Hi: I haven’t posted in a while due to health related problems.

With that said while I was hospitalized I talked to an older gent and while we talked he told me of his Grandpaps cure for rumatisum (as he called it). He told me how his grandpap would use elderberry syrup for his gout. So I looked around and found a recipe for making it.

I’ve been taking it for about 5 months and been off allopurinal for 3 months. This is the first time in years that I haven’t taken meds and been gout free(knock on wood).? I don’t know if it?is a mental thing or not but so far it is working.

Living in America people don’t trust older cures, more so since it came from England. I was hoping some of the members from across the ocean would have any info on this subject? There maybe an attack waiting in my future. But without meds I never went more than a month without one of my joints being affected. I take a big shot in the morning and if I remember I take one at night.

[trev]

A herbalist friend brought me round some Ground elder [Gout/Goat weed] last year when I was suffering. It had no effect. Don't use Elder- it's loaded with toxin btw and looks similar.

I took to using Elderflower cordial as a wine mixer with some success [ ie: Not beer , at least]- it's rather nice.

I can well imagine the syrup being useful, on this background- but as I don't need it now will see what other reactions you get to this idea.

I reckon Meta will try it- as he's being hit right now and he's a big fan of holistic/ natural remedies.

[Dan]

Trev: I am not talking about ground elder. I no that is stems of the plant just ground up. This syrup is made with just the ripe berries and a few other ingredent. The stems are not good for your because of the toxin you mentioned but berries are fine for everything fro pies to jellies.

[Keith Taylor (GoutPal Admin)]

Dan said:

?but berries are fine for everything fro pies to jellies.

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And don't forget wine

Elderberries have been mentioned before around here (Use the search box for a full list), and probably qualify for a bit of a write-up on GoutPal. There are two potential benefits for gout sufferers:

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1. Anthocyanins

These are the compounds that give color to cherries and metamorph's Black Bean Broth. There is at least one study suggesting that these natural compounds act in the same way as NSAIDs – a kind of natural ibuprofen / naproxen / indomethacin.

2. Quercetin

This is a flavonoid common in many foods. Elderberries are rich in quercetin, which is very high on my list for a better summary in the Gout Treatment section.

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Dan, please can you post that recipe?

[Dan]

Elderberry Syrup for Gout

Keith: I don't know if this is the right place to post this but; I use:

• 2 cups of water
• 1 cup of berries
• 5-10 cloves
• 1 cinnomon stick
• 2 ginger capsules opened and emptied
• 1/2 cup raw honey

1. I put the water in a saucepan.
2. I put all other ingredients in a piece of cheese cloth except honey.
3. Set the honey aside.
4. Put the cheese cloth in the pan of water and place on the stove.
5. Bring the mixture to a rolling boil and turn heat down to simmer.
6. Simmer for 20 min.
7. Remove from stove and allow to cool.
8. Remove cheese cloth and squeeze.
9. When mixture is warm not hot mix in honey.

I use raw honey from a farmer that is not pasturized.I also use ginger capsules instead of fresh ginger as it is very high priced around here. Put the juice in the fridge to cool. This is how I do it you can add or subtract any ingredients for your own taste.

I incorporated this into my day while taking my Allopurional for 2 months. In the second month I started cutting down my dosage to 4 times a week the 3 then 2 then 1 then stopped. I did this just incase, knowing I could jump back on my full dosage of 1 a day if I had to.

I have had a few tingles in my toe but they only lasted a day or 2 at the most and I was able to still wear shoes. Again I don't know if this is going to work long term so I will let you know how it is going but so far so good.

[Keith Taylor (GoutPal Admin)]

Yes, Dan, this is the right place, and thank you.

I'll incorporate it into the Gout Home Remedies pages soon.

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In the last part, you talk about reducing dosage. Do you mean reducing dosage of allopurinol? This is very unwise without blood test results to confirm the drop in uric acid.

[Dan]

Keith: The answer is yes to the allopurinop. I was affraid to just stop taking it and fiqured that if I had a flare up I could just revert back to my 300mg dose. My last blood test was 3 months ago. I am getting it tested next week. Again this trial will end on a good note or bad. I am hoping for the good part LOL. My old doctor has retired and his replacement is younger and alot different. He believes that your should try to get off perscription drugs if at all possible. He claims the long term studies of drug therpy are not as promising as once believed. That years on some drugs are starting to cause other medical problems that doctors did not know about back then.

[Keith Taylor (GoutPal Admin)]

Dan said:

He believes that your should try to get off perscription drugs if at all possible. He claims the long term studies of drug therpy are not as promising as once believed. That years on some drugs are starting to cause other medical problems that doctors did not know about back then.

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But there is one indisputable fact that you have to be very clear about. Years of uncontrolled high uric acid are completely ruinous to your health.

Allopurinol usage MUST be determined by uric acid test. Just because you have no gout flares, does not mean that gout is controlled. It is extremely common to go for years with no flares, but with urate deposits slowly building up. Gout flares are absolutely no indication in the short term that allopurinol is working. And in the long term, stopping allopurinol without reference to uric acid levels simply puts you at the highest possible risk for serious gout damage.

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I am not advocating indiscriminate long term use of unnecessary gout medications, but I'm bound by my principles of care, and by my love for humanity, to warn you that if you do not respect the principle of setting allopurinol dosage according to uric acid test results, you run a high risk of permanent damage to bone, cartilage and tendon tissue, and a medium risk of damage (which might be reversible) to kidneys and other body tissue. No amount of elderberry juice will fix that!

[zip2play]

I just attended a convention with one of the vendors sporting ELDERBERRY VODKA. It was quite delicious and I give “plain” vodka a wide berth becausue to me it tastes like rubbing alcohol.

I'm sure it would give me a rosy glow but I would NEVER consider it a substitute for allopurinol.

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Dan,

You are skating on thin ice experimenting with food replacements for your allopurinol. There are none.

But I guess each of us finds that out in his own painful way.

[Dan]

Look I not telling anyone to get off meds and I agree that uric acid levels are nothing to joke about. I, like most of you have taken every drug to control gout. To the point of surgery because of intestinal bleeding caused by indomethacin and celebrex. Even allopurinal can cause damage to your kidneys or liver. Maybe in a small percentage but if your in that percentage it is a big deal. Until modern medicine come up with better meds we have to look. If you are the one who can no longer take meds for uric acid you better hope someone somewhere comes up with something. I went for my blood work today and it should be back in a couple days. I just wanted to no if any of the members from over in Europe ever heard of this kinda treatment. I no this might upset some people but western medicine does not have all the answers. When I picked up a new prescription today it came with instructions on how to take it, drug interactions and side effect. The instructions for taking the meds where less then 4 lines. The part on drug interactions was a page long and the allopurinol side effects were 1 and a half pages long. So I will finish my trial but please don't anyone else.

[trev]

If you can find ways to reduce or eliminate meds for high SUA then that is a sensible thing to do. It does happen.

Those who can take treatments with impunity are lucky and even take the? benefit for granted, understandably.

ALL meds? have to be treated with caution ,if not respect. They are by nature designed to alter your bodily response from what IT prefers, however distorted a path that may be. Gout is certainly a bodily re-direction.

On the use of natural cures, many swear by them and even if some of these are due to placebo effect- so what?

[though I very much doubt placebo effect works? in gout – ever!]

There's no doubt whatsoever that some medicines can have very unwelcome results ? that's why Drs are highly paid/stressed!

Traditional medicine was based on years of trial and error- so are modern ones?

[Keith Taylor (GoutPal Admin)]

Dan said:

?Even allopurinal can cause damage to your kidneys or liver. Maybe in a small percentage but if your in that percentage it is a big deal. Until modern medician come up with better meds we have to look. If you are the one who can no longer take meds for uric acid you better hope someone somewhere comes up with something.

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We've been here before. I believe there is more evidence to suggest that allopurinol is good for kidneys than bad. In fact, I cannot recall any evidence that suggests allopurinol is bad for kidneys, so I can't refute it. I can certainly see plenty of evidence that shows high uric acid can damage kidneys. Use the search box above, and enter kidney to see the positive benefits, and other discussions. Liver problems might occur, but this is a very complex subject. As Hans has said recently, it is important for gout patients to have frequent liver and kidney function tests alongside their uric acid tests. I can't find any evidence that long term use of allopurinol is damaging to either kidneys or liver, but I'd certainly appreciate some links or study titles so I can investigate further.

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What concerns me most about your regime Dan, is the confusion between allopurinol, a treatment for lowering uric acid, and elderberry, a treatment for reducing inflammation and pain.

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Of course, you have the right to choose whatever gout treatments you want, but if you are concerned about allopurinol usage, your options should be to focus on alternative treatments that lower uric acid, though these are even less well monitored, from a side-effect point of view, than allopurinol, or other Gout Medications To Avoid Gout .

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I really do take your point about the amount of side-effect information compared to usage information, bit surely this is just a product of applying controls. Not that FDA controls are perfect, but at leat there are some. Elderberry juice vendors are not obliged to exercise the same levels of controls or disclose side-effects, but search for “elderberry poisoning” will tell a different story.

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I can tell by the tone of your previous reply that you are not best pleased with some of the crticism. Believe me when I say that it is entirely motivated by concern for your health. I would like to be supportive of anyone finding acceptable alternatives to pharmaceutical monopolies and cartels, however, the same principles of gout treatment apply whichever treatment options you choose (including diet). By all means take whatever steps necessary to deal with the pain in the short term, but do not neglect the vital uric acid controls that ensure gout freedom in the long term.

[Dan]

Keith: I agree with you and if you recall I said if this doesn't work I will be back on allopurinol. I am not against drugs but lets face it. There is no pharmacuetical drug imported from Mars or the moon. Every drug that is derived comes from something found here on Earth, weather a plant or rock or from the sea. It already exsists. The fact that major drug companies change it or condence it, it is already here in one shape or form. What I find intriguing is that Eastern Medicine think so differently than Western medicine. However the Westerners will tell you that we are right our medicine is based on science and the 10,000 years of Eastern medicine is is just whoy. Medicine that is practiced in Europe is not legal in the USA does that make it whoy, I don't think so. Here herbs have only come into the main spotlight for maybe 10 years and not with the approval of the FDA. This I do no. I was released from a hospital 5+ months ago after a surgery. I had lost 25 pounds. I was placed on a high protein diet (meat) and I have been eating meat atleast once a day for 5+ months with out an attack. I have put the weight back on and have altered my diet back to alot of fish but as you no what happens to people that have gout when they eat alot of meat the attacks are coming. So far I am knocking on wood and waiting for my blood work. Anyone reading this forum please DO NOT STOP TAKING YOUR MEDS.

[zip2play]

When ANY disease is incurable, out will come the 1,000 foods, herbs, nostrums and prayers to enrich the charlatans selling the crap. People with incurable, untreatable diseases are desperate.

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It is a shame that when a REAL and USEFUL treatment comes along, the crap peddlers persist and people STILL fall for the old nostrums.

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It happens with all disease, from plague to cancer.

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Before 1950, gout was virtually untreatable except for pain mediation and was a slow death?sentence? but that did not stop doctors (both real and witch) from prescribing useless remedies while bilking patients in excruciating pain.

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In reality, somebody with an elderberry orchard probably heard the cherry growers were making a FORTUNE on “gout cures” and thought he'd get on the banwagon. Like I said, human nature.

For the elderberry lovers:

The flowers have been used in Europe for many years to cure fever and colds? It is also used as an expectorant to cure asthma and bronchitis

It is effective against flu

This herb is often used to cure and prevent upper respiratory infections. Research shows that elderberry can decrease mucus secretion and can even reduce the swelling in the mucus membranes and can decrease nasal congestion

The flowers as well as the berries of the elderberry tree are used for making medicines? The berries contain flavonoids, which are known to protect the body from free radicals, boost the immunity, and add flavor to food. Initial studies have shown that elderberry can be used to treat herpes, viruses and maybe even HIV

The bark of the elderberry tree has been known to be used to cure constipation and water retention? It is also used to induce vomiting

The leaves of elderberry are often used with creams and in sitz baths to cure eczema, boils, arthritis and other inflammatory problems

People prefer to use elderberry in herbal mixtures and as elderberry syrup to treat bronchitis, sinusitis and influenza

Traditionally, elderberry has been used to treat and bring relief to congestion, water retention, inflammation, and to relieve pain

It also cures infections, diabetes, rheumatism, inflammatory diseases and neuralgia

Elderberry can act as a laxative, as a medicine to cure skin disorders, can aid in weight loss and as a diuretic

In my experience, any food that is claimed to cure EVERYTHING, cures nothing. Best, and cruelest line: “and maybe even HIV.”

It is a shame that claims like that can escape criminal prosecution.

[Dan]

Thanks Zip: That is the closest I got to to a answer. I made this post to find if anyone in Europe has ever heard of elderberry cures. Living in the USA the only thing elderberries are good for is jelly and maybe wine. With that said, The preson I talked to came from England and I have no friends living in Europe anywhere. I no some of the members on the site were from over seas and may have different info on the subject. I agree that people will sell you snake oil to cure everything. More so in the USA where scam artist are the best(anything for a buck). The man I was in the hospital with wasn't trying to sell anything we were just talking. There may have been more to the story, I don't no.

[Keith Taylor (GoutPal Admin)]

• Abstract

Eur Cytokine Netw. 2001 Apr-Jun;12(2):290-6.

The
effect of Sambucol, a black elderberry-based, natural product, on the
production of human cytokines: I. Inflammatory cytokines.

Barak V, Halperin T, Kalickman I.

Immunology Laboratory for Tumor Diagnosis, Department of Oncology, Hadassah University Hospital, Jerusalem, Israel.

Abstract

Sambucus
nigra L. products – Sambucol – are based on a standardized black
elderberry extract. They are natural remedies with antiviral properties,
especially against different strains of influenza virus. Sambucol was
shown to be effective in vitro against 10 strains of influenza virus. In
a double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized study, Sambucol reduced
the duration of flu symptoms to 3-4 days. Convalescent phase serum
showed a higher antibody level to influenza virus in the Sambucol group,
than in the control group. The present study aimed to assess the effect
of Sambucol products on the healthy immune system – namely, its effect
on cytokine production. The production of inflammatory cytokines was
tested using blood – derived monocytes from 12 healthy human donors.
Adherent monocytes were separated from PBL and incubated with different
Sambucol preparations i.e., Sambucol Elderberry Extract, Sambucol Black
Elderberry Syrup, Sambucol Immune System and Sambucol for Kids.
Production of inflammatory cytokines (IL-1 beta, TNF-alpha, IL-6, IL-8)
was significantly increased, mostly by the Sambucol Black Elderberry
Extract (2-45 fold), as compared to LPS, a known monocyte activator
(3.6-10.7 fold). The most striking increase was noted in TNF-alpha
production (44.9 fold). We conclude from this study that, in addition to
its antiviral properties, Sambucol Elderberry Extract and its
formulations activate the healthy immune system by increasing
inflammatory cytokine production. Sambucol might therefore be beneficial
to the immune system activation and in the inflammatory process in
healthy individuals or in patients with various diseases. Sambucol could
also have an immunoprotective or immunostimulatory effect when
administered to cancer or AIDS patients, in conjunction with
chemotherapeutic or other treatments. In view of the increasing
popularity of botanical supplements, such studies and investigations in
vitro, in vivo and in clinical trials need to be developed.

PMID: 11399518

[Dan]

Thank You Keith…….. Dan

[trev]

Q:In view of the increasing popularity of botanical supplements, such studies and investigations in
vitro, in vivo and in clinical trials need to be developed

As Elderberry is incapable of patenting- I'm not holding my breath! However, it does show that traditional remedies are valid- if research can be done.

I think people who privately pursue this path deserve success, in any situation.

The less attention/success accorded by the Pharma Co's to healthy alternatives?-the more people are driven to find more natural treatments. In some cases meds are all that will do the trick.

[Dan]

Nicely put Trev.

[Author]

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