- This topic has 15 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 5 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Hi, I'm a very keen triathlete. I drink minimal amounts of alchohol and am quite lean (10% body fat). My diet is good and I train between twenty to thirty hours a week. I have suffered from gout in the past. My Father used to get it and I drank heavily at university.
I had a year without an attack until about a month ago when I had a huge attack that lasted ten days and was excruciating!!! I eventually went to see the doctor and I was prescribed colchicine and the gout went. Since then I have had 3 small attacks lasting about two days.
Nothing has changed in how I train or eat…the only thing I can see in my food diary is I have swapped energy drink from High 5 to Power Bar powder drink. I saw on the site (awesome by the way!) a article showing powdered drinks and cordials showing these to be gout triggers. Can anyone add to this? Has anyone else had this, especially cyclists, runners, walkers etc…? I'll cut out the coirdials no worries, but energy drinks are quite vital to my training / racing.
Are there any studies about this or experiences by people on here?
Thanks….
Hi Kt- I've been reading up on gout triggers over a while and discussed soda type drinks here in the past- I think Zip likes them 😉
Recently I came across a good overview on Mercola that mentions Fructose as very bad for gout as it turns swiftly into uric acid, apparently!
As I've always gone on about alkalizing diet for gout help, and this means a high fruit content, I realised there was a contra-indication here.
The tables for fruit are quite clear,dried apricots and figs [less weight per calorie] are my weakness and top of the list @ 16.4 and 23 gms/cup.
As the daily fructose allowance for diet watchers is 25 gms per day (~2 bananas) – the other point in relation to booster drinks is that glucose accelerates the absorption of fructose- which can lead to increased insulin resistance and all that entails.
Glucose alone does not have this effect -so are the best option for drinks and tablets for energy , should you need these.
Kimmermann,
The odds are very good that nothing you now do will stop your gout attacks short of going on a urate lowering drug.
Mercola is wrong, trev…as he usually is. He is close to beliieving that all the world's ills are caused by fructose. He is a QUACK, par excellence, and thus probably EXTREMELY rich by now.
There is no conceivable chemical reaction that can convert fructose, a simple sugar, into uric acid…none. If you know of one, let me know.
Its not a direct chemical reaction, it comes from the organisms metabolism of fructose.
“Because ATP (adenosine triphosphate) is used in the phosphorylation of fructose to fructose-1-phosphate, adenosine monophosphate (AMP) accumulates (see Figure from Woods et al. 1970). AMP is then dephosphorylated to adenosine or deaminated to inosine monophosphate, both of which are intermediates in purine catabolic pathways that produce uric acid”
Thanks for that, Esab- and I thought gout was complicated, till I saw that pathway.
Mercola is not to Zips taste- I know, but he has a clinic and thousands of clients and if he needs to make money for that end, it doesn't make him different to anyone else, imo.
That pathway looks quite laboured- so I assume that doesn't make it necessarily a slow chemical process. Any idea on that timing?
I would not focus on the sports drink but your UA levels. When I started on Allopurinol 300mg I was not able to get below 6 and after some detailed discussion with my doc about what I was doing phyiscally he immediatly upped my dose to 600mg. When you put your body through the paces like you do for triathlons you are actually increasing your UA levels just the same as if you went on a beer and liver bender. I have been doing some reading related to intense exercise and Uric Acid levels. From what I understand Anaerobic workouts will cause increase UA levels because of cell breakdown and Lactic acid competes with Uric Acid for kidney bandwidth. I am sure it is more complicated then that but I keep it simple for my own good. I am a distance hiker and backpacker. It is not uncommon for me to push 10+ miles a day for 3-5 days across, up and down mountains, canyons and everything in between. On daily basis I do about 1-2 hours of cardio either on a bike or out hiking/running cross country. I have seen positive results since increasing my AP dose and my attacks have gone from ~monthly and very persistent to non existent. My UA levels are now in the 3-4 range when I test at home. If the your UA levels are high enough for you to be depositing crystals in your joints it will just continue to get worse, get the UA level checked and you may even consider monitoring at home.
esobogal,
That chart is a big reach. It basically shows two pathways, one indicating that fructose is converted to glucose…yes indeed.
Another pathway is that purines are converted to uric acid…yes indeed.
But thank you, you did as I asked; you provided a chemical pathway from the internet…well TWO actually connected by a couple loops at the top that were supposed to convey meaning.
Relationship between the two pathways…hooey and a bit of quick doubletalk about ATP.
So if you eat some fructose and some sweetbreads, you'll make urate…yes indeed. But you don't need the fructose to get the same effect….the body will break down all foods with the pyrimidine ring fused to an imidazole ring, a purine, to mostly uric acid and you don't need fructose. These rings are mostly nitrogen compounds…fructose is nitrogen free and CANNOT be made into urate, not by God himself.
Hans,
Dr. Lustig starts this half hour by saying basically : “Why does the Atkins diet work?” and goes on from there. Problem is IT DOESN'T WORK. This illustrates a prejudice and makes the rest of the work useless.
It's like a tedious presentation entitled “What are the attributes of GOD?” that begins with the statement ” Since it is obvious that God exists…”
Be honsest with me…did you listen to the whole 90 minutes? C'mon, be honest!
Yes, fructose is fattening, glucose is fattening, and meat is fattening, potatoes are fattening and cheese is fattening…less of any of these or less of their total will lessen obesity. This info doesn't make for books or lectures as witness the very first diet book written by UGGO in pre history. It was in cuneiform on a huge stone slab…it had but two words: EAT LESS. It sold poorly.
So pundits have to come up with GIMMICKS. “Buy my book and I'll show you the single food you need to avoid to get a 6-pack you can grate cheese on AND have huge erections to boot!”
So fructose is today's enemy…last decade it was fat…before that it was STARVATION.
All gimmicks and Mercola is the QUEEN of faddish gimmicks.
If someone wants to ferret out all the HFCS in his diet, go for it. It will not be easy nor will it affect your gout at all unless you take allopurinol also. If you want to eliminate ALL fructose, make sure you never have a piece of fruit again. Maybe easier would be for some brave guinea pig with a UA tester: test your uric acid and drink a 6 pack of UN-diet Coke, all 1000 calories (yecch)…then test again. But then Mercola or Lustig might claim you need SEVEN Cokes…that's common quackery, you didn't take enough to show the effect.
There was a radio food guru named Gary Null (who also wrote 18,000 bad books) who claimed Vitamin C caused cancer. When confronted wiith “We tried, it didn't work” his repy was the same: “You didn't use enough.” When he was finally driven to the absurdity of recommending a daily IV drip of 120 grams (yes, a quarter pound) of ascorbate he finally threw in the towel and stopped gassing about his cancer “cure.” I hope he didn't kill too many people.
The same people yammering about fructose are kind of STUCK when they criticize sodas…they cannot say drink Diet Soda instead (no sugars) because LAST year, the enemy was artificial sweetners, precisely aspartame which caused all disease. (I wonder what the single thing that is killing us will be NEXT year…I'm sure Merdcola will be the first to let us know. I hope it;s canned peas because I hate them.)
I've watched the diet game for a long while. Maybe I'm not the only person who remembers the claims that FRUCTOSE was unique among sugars in that the body IGNORED its calories. Health food stores were selling fructose supplements to lose weight. Anyone else remember that fad? Yep, they had EXPERTS making the claims just like Lusty Lustig.
In 2020, Fructose will probably be claimed to cure cancer.
See, the way it works is that when almost evereyone is agreed something is true like FAT IS FATTENING AND CAUSES HEART DISEASE, an iconoclast like an Atkins can make BILLIONS by telling us FAT IS GOOD FOR YOU AND CAUSES WEIGHT LOSS (he died of cardiomyopathy and fell on his head.) Another fave is the Eat 42 times a day diet to lose weight.
The curse is governmental abdication of Quackery Control…so the Quacks quack to make money, facts and studies and testing are not needed.
We see it with the cherry pushers and the homeopathic cures…and trips to Lourdes.
Something to look for when searching for truth: When anything is shown to cause or cure almost EVERYTHING, you are being sold a bill of goods.
But for those with gout who choose to believe in the gouty horrors of fructose, perhaps you can test for us: give up fructose and also give up allopurinol. Let us know how well you do.
Anyone who is listening to Lustig, somewhere around minute 45 he starts with the chemistry which turns out to be intense minutiae, chemistry is like that, but PRECISE. He makes believe he is being precise. But here's how he BEGINS the last hour: “take 2 pieces of bread…they contain 120 calories of GLUCOSE.” Problem is that is a lie, they do NOT contain that much glucose but far far less. This belies the hour of minutiae of chemical conversions that follows.
Yes, the body can convert starch of bread to glucose…but why begin a chemical presentation with a LIE? The presumption is the rest is a bunch of half-truths also. Again, just like “So now that we all believe in God, we will prove what color his hair is!”
Twenty minutes later he says: “Fructose is sent to the liver to be changed. Now what do we call a product dforeign to the body that must be changed? We call it a POISON!” On the grounds of that sentence alone the man should lose his job because he is a fool. The liver changes almost ALL foods before the body can use them. ALL fat is sent to the liver and changed.
I wonder who paid him for this lecture?
I made it to 1 hour 5 minutes and could bear no more doubletalk and half-truths.
Ktimmermann said:
Hi, I’m a very keen triathlete. I drink minimal amounts of alchohol and am quite lean (10% body fat). My diet is good and I train between twenty to thirty hours a week. I have suffered from Gout in the past. My Father used to get it and I drank heavily at university.
I had a year without an attack until about a month ago when I had a huge attack that lasted ten days and was excruciating!!! I eventually went to see the doctor and I was prescribed colchicine and the gout went. Since then I have had 3 small attacks lasting about two days.
Nothing has changed in how I train or eat?the only thing I can see in my food diary is I have swapped energy drink from High 5 to Power Bar powder drink. I saw on the site (awesome by the way!) a article showing powdered drinks and cordials showing these to be gout triggers. Can anyone add to this? Has anyone else had this, especially cyclists, runners, walkers etc?? I’ll cut out the coirdials no worries, but energy drinks are quite vital to my training / racing.
Are there any studies about this or experiences by people on here?
Thanks?.
Good job! Keep up the triathlons! This thing can’t beat you. I have no idea what chemical compounds cause xyz. There are much smarter people on this board that can, and have, analyzed the chemisty.
However, I want to offer a suggestion if you are will allow. My liquid consumption comes in the form of just a few things- water, coffee, cherry juice, and Hammer Nutrition products. In that order.
I use Hammer products because they don’t contain simple sugars. All of their goodies are maltodextren based and it provides a longer and flater energy curve than tradition sugar-based drinks and supplements. I have also noticed no coorelation between this and my gout attacks. Perpetuem has fueled me through 5 tris, numerous bike races, and too many 5k through half marathons to count. There is no spike and crash. Want something to give you a higher curve? Add some hammer gel to the mix and it will give you an extra kick. Again, it won’t leave you with a crash later either. It’s also isotpic, so you stomach does not need to steal extra liquid from your body to dilute and then digest it. It goes straight in to the blood stream. Just do not mix it with a sugar based solution. Your stomach can not digest both at the same time. You will end up getting sick.
True, this year my marathon training was derailed by a gout cycle that still continues. The furthest I went in trainiing was 17.5 miles. However, I don’t see that the distance or the drink really played a factor in my attacks. My inability to keep on the meds was probably my major flaw. For what it’s worth, my off season training consisted of running 25-30 miles, 30 miles on the bike, and around 1k swim per week. Now I’m down to almost nothing. :yell:
Find what works for you and stick with it. The Hammer suggestion may or may not work for you, but it should be able to consistently fuel your adventures. I’m starting to turn the corner on this endless gout cycle and I think I might actually be able to compete at a serious level by the end of the summer.
Full disclosure- I am in no way affiliated with Hammer Nutrition. I am only a customer that has seen good results from their products.
I drank on average only 2-3 coke bottles in a year before Gout……same for other fizzy drinks. So irrespective of if fizzy drinks connection with Gout I sure as hell won't be starting on them now
They are unhealthy period. I will continue to stick with water and fresh fruits.“Fizzy” might be correlated with gout attacks because the fizz is dissolved carbon dioxide, aka carbonic acid, which will acidify your urine and maybe even your joints. But there is also good evidence that your body (rather than your urine) keeps itself within a narrow pH.
I have HUGE respect for triathletes and marathoners one of the trainers at my gym is a top level triathlete and his workout schedule AMAZES me. His ability to gain and lose 20 pounds in the blink of an eye is magical.
I use Hammer products because they don’t contain simple sugars. All of their goodies are maltodextren based and it provides a longer and flatter energy curve than tradition sugar-based drinks and supplements.
Don't get too blown away by nutrition company claims. For one thing, SUCROSE, the granulated stuff in the sugar bowl is a COMPLEX DOUBLE SUGAR, not a simple sugar like glucose or fructose. And maltodextrin may SOUND snazzy but it is merely a variant on solid corn syrup, and not much unlike HFCS, all cornstarch that is chemically converted to sugar. In fact:
from wikik: Maltodextrin is easily digestible, being absorbed as rapidly as glucose, and might either be moderately sweet or might have hardly any flavor at all.
If you want a SLOWLY absorbed sugar, choose lactose, not glucose, sucrose, or maltodextrin. In fact even fructose is probably absorbed much more slowly than maltodextrin. Better yet, use a complex starch. (There was logic behind spaghetti loading the night before a marathon.)
zip2play said:
If you want a SLOWLY absorbed sugar, choose lactose, not glucose, sucrose, or maltodextrin. In fact even fructose is probably absorbed much more slowly than maltodextrin. Better yet, use a complex starch. (There was logic behind spaghetti loading the night before a marathon.)
Totally agree and I apologize if I have been steering things towards edurance sports. 😎
I usually eat good complex carbs, lean protein,and top off the body with as much water as I can hold during the days before a major event. Breakfast the day of consists of at least one bannana and a whole wheat tortilla stuffed with peanut butter. I will then eat hammer gel and perpetuem for the first 2/3rds of the bike. It allows me to fuel for the run without becoming bloated and full. The electrolytes and glycogen levels in my body should be good to carry me through the run. If not, then I’ll adjust with a little gel. I hardly ever drink during the run leg of a sprint tri. Olympic? Maybe if it’s hot. I should be able to run 6.2 without aid unless it’s brutally hot. Besides, drinking takes time!
If I need a little somethig to wet my mouth, then I’ll throw water into my face. Never engery drinks. That’s just gross and messy. I dumped an entire cup of orange gatorade down the front of me at mile 3 of a half marathon. Luckily, it was raining that day and most of the junk washed off. The volunteers put the wrong drink in the wrong cup.
Zip- why is your friend at the gym gaining and dropping 20lbs? That’s crazy! I’ll usually drop 5 pounds in order to get down to my race weight, but 20 is nuts!
Jeff,
I don't know, Jeff.
But it seems that he is down to what looks like 5% bodyfat now. I saw him clothed and my first thought was anorexia, bulemia, or cancer but then I saw him nude and I realized that he is down to steel fibered muscles and sinews.
He had gained an exorbitant amount of weight last year…maybe 30 pounds and might just be overcompensating ala Scarlett O'Hara: “I'll never be poor again” = “I'll never be overweight again.”
From peak weight last Fall to today, I'll bet he is down 40 pounds…I've never seen anything like it short of THE BIGGEST LOSER, but this guy, at his WORST had a terrific body.
But then I guess it's easier to grind a bike up a steep hill at 40 pounds less.
(Who knows, maybe one day I'll go to the gym and see him hobbling around with gout.
I'll trade him allopurinol for steroids!
)zip2play said:
Jeff,
I don’t know, Jeff.
But it seems that he is down to what looks like 5% bodyfat now. I saw him clothed and my first thought was anorexia, bulemia, or cancer but then I saw him nude and I realized that he is down to steel fibered muscles and sinews.
He had gained an exorbitant amount of weight last year?maybe 30 pounds and might just be overcompensating ala Scarlett O’Hara: ?I’ll never be poor again? = ?I’ll never be overweight again.?
From peak weight last Fall to today, I’ll bet he is down 40 pounds?I’ve never seen anything like it short of THE BIGGEST LOSER, but this guy, at his WORST had a terrific body.
But then I guess it’s easier to grind a bike up a steep hill at 40 pounds less.
(Who knows, maybe one day I’ll go to the gym and see him hobbling around with gout.
I’ll trade him allopurinol for steroids!)
That makes sense. He could have been on a bulking phase too if it’s a body builder. I was confused and thought the 20# difference was a regular thing.
Jeff,
The 40 pound drop was extraordinary but the regular 20 pound swings seeem quite frequent.
No, he's not a roid-head nor does he have a bodybuilder's body type but he looks the PERFECT triathlete…most of the time.
I'm gonna talk to him about it next time I catch him between clients…I could use some weight-loss tips.
Ktimmermann said:
Hi, I'm a very keen triathlete…….Nothing has changed in how I train or eat……the only thing I can see in my food diary is I have swapped energy drink from High 5 to Power Bar powder drink…..Can anyone add to this? Has anyone else had this, especially cyclists, runners, walkers etc…?
Are there any studies about this or experiences by people on here?
Addressing the OP's question…and not the seque into chemistry…I offer a bit of fact and a lot of personal opinion/observation.
I ride heavily. I am currently training for the Seattle Portland bike race taking place on July 17th (~204 miles). I put in 30 miles a day for four days (T-F) and then a 70 mile ride on Sunday. I drink water and Gatorade and eat Clif bars during my rides. I also do the occasional sprint triathalon.
I am a 41yo former frat boy, my beer consumption is down to having a couple light beers once a week. I am also on 100mg of Allopurinol. I am technically obese at 6 foot and 238lbs.
Anyway, speaking from my own perspective here are my thoughts…
1. Watch the sodium intake. Too much sodium is a gout trigger. I take two bottles with me when I ride, one gatorade and one plain water so that I dont overdo the sodium. Think about other areas of your diet you can cut back on salt/sodium to compensate for your heavy intake while training.
2. Most would agree that a flareup normally happens 2-3 days after whatever trigger caused it. So when you get a twinge or attack think about what you were doing 2-3 days before and not just the previous day.
3. The problem with powdered drinks is that they do not dissolve completely after being placed into the water. So you end up drinking large free floating crystals. Since its a liquid drink it tends to wash through the stomach quickly without getting broken down by the acids and the intestines absorb it “whole” rather than microscopically. You have a “large” (relatively speaking) chuck of Maltodextrin, Fructose, Dextrose, Sodium Citrate, Citric Acid, Sodium Chloride, Magnesium Citrate, and Potassium Citrate floating into your blood stream…and the blood stream does not process the parts individually nor does it break it down further. It either uses it as is or it sends it to the kidneys to be removed. If a large chunk flows into a tiny capillary, it might not make it through and end up adding to gout as it stacks in with the other existing crystals.
4. If you are really stuck on using the powder there is one easy way to fix number 3 above…make the drink the day before and use hot water then put it into the fridge to chill. (note – dont put hot water directly in the plastic sport bottle because that has its own problems. Heat will cause the powder to dissolve completely and evenly into the water. Its the same reason why you make jello with hot water instead of cold.
5. Front load the sports drinks and then swap to water. If you have 15 minutes or less left in your training you should swap to plain water. It takes that long for the sport/energy drinks to make a difference anyway. I personally do not believe in continuing with the energy drinks after training and just hydrate with water. I know my body will automatically replenish anything it needs during the next normal meal (which is usually soon afterwards anyway)
I hope this provided you with something to think about. It sucks to see a good athlete still having to deal with flareup and attacks.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.