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Peter- you gotta looze the booze Bud! You know it, and everyone else does π
The squits were like free Colchicine and now you've settled down the settling in of urate is re-occuring.
If and when [hopefully] you get your UA level down for a time long enough to stabilise your SUA figure at some nice low figure the occasional drink[wine] will indeed be well earned!
Remember- your body needs water to function, not as an antidote.
Alcohol is effectively a poison [and I like it, too!].
Good Luck.
My local health food store repackage Common, or Black Turtle, beans- imported from China.
I thought they may have a useful importer contact- but 'no go'.
He didn't even know of black (presumably normally arriving 'de-hulled') type of soya bean.
From reading Metas' detailed story on here _ I get the impression that once you are confident in it, and take enough, it goes down a treat π
I always now add raw root ginger,garlic and raw hot chilli pepper to it and split with a strong soup mix to make a whole lot less medicinal.
These are all good for gout, inflamation +circulation and cheaper than a curry π
Winter vegetable soup goes particularly well with BBB. [Maybe the earthyness matches?]
Stay with the Turtle beans for now and let us all know. I have had some indication that it's helpful
[no attack to judge though] and zero bad side effects from using it- as Meta has found out ok.
Having seen these (or similar) reports a way back made me very wary of going over the limit with Colchicine.
Also, though I think it could help as a long term prophylactive for gout- the thought of having a compromised immune system 'for ever' didn't appeal , overmuch!
I suspect not more likely to catch an illness -but longer to get over it.
Note, though that virus infections in particular are beaten down by the higher body temperature usually developed. They seem to be programmed not to kill the host as they give up just when winning the battle. Maybe these latest fright viri [pandemic] have a higher withstand.
I don't think Colch has a temperture lowering function, fortunately- in these cases.
For bacterial infections there must be a risk of an inefficient immune system needing fairly quick antibiotic support.Something to bear in mind as they are being withdrawn more and more through earlier overuse in viral infections- where they are pretty useless, apart from reducing secondary infections.
With doctors denying the link it's not surprising that little is known about the immune downsides.
Most gouties are oldish, not over photogenic [ahem] and grateful for anything!!
Ha! If God trained on earth it would have been at medical school
I had a locum doc last year [who's still with the practice] -and we quickly got onto gout, as he'd just had 2 years off with it. Un-diagnosed by 2 other doctors- IN the spine !! Say no more !
He told me he'd been pretty well suicidal – and though it's unusual for this level of confidence from a medic- it shows what a great leveller Gout can be.
Unless someone's had it, they have NO idea of the pain- but I have heard comparisons with both heart attack and birth pains – and they don't last weeks.
A slight difference in emphasis we all know…
The good news is this… He is only on 200mg AlloP daily- and been working like that since a year back- so megadoses are not de rigour in bad attack cases, however painful.
From what you've said, you're well aware of the need for lifestyle management and your first post got a swift responses due to clear posting, overall.
Gouties do seem to be intelligent acheivers , in the main [no idea why!] and perhaps more sensitive than many, as well. Thus, depression is always a possiblility under continued painful & widespread attacks.
You've also confirmed this work point too, and I'm pretty certain that 50% of the gout inclusion in my life was caused by stress and fatigue. get more rest, maybe?
If you're drinking plenty [and have no other medical issues that might be affecting your metabolism]- I would suggest that your commendable weight loss is high on the culprit list!
Others here can explain better about the effects of heavy exercise, weight loss and lactic acid- but you are better off without the extra ,now it's gone. I stick to middle distance walking mainly.
I have read that out of all the Gouty pain killers Aleve is the least likely to cause side effects- but it is Asprin based and that is not the best till you have stabilised your UA. However, in heavier dosage, Asprin is apparently helpful in reducing UA , but then, the well know gastric problems may occur.
Fatdom- all prescription drugs are acid forming from all I've read.I've never associated pain killers with depression- only risk of over-dependence and rebound headaches etc.
BBB is worth a try for sure- but I really think now you have broken the back of the UA lowering drug you should persist with it now.
It takes persistent monitoring of diet, fluid intakes and exercise to go 'med free' [Commando? π ] and if you are suffering from anxiety depression [and I know about that] -it may be hard to keep focus and positive ,whilst suffering attack+side effects of other meds too.
Of these things mentioned I think the thing you may be missing is fluid intake.
Whatever you're taking now you may need as much as double the amount, in truth.
Make it spring ar good well water if you're lucky enough to have a source and a filter is nearly as good, especially if 'sink top' type.
Chlorine, fluoride & run off pollutants are no good when your system is out of balance and water quality figures for general consumption are for average known reactions. Gout sufferers are not average people -nor is your fluid intake requirement average.
I've just got a UA testing meter [another post here] and that gave me a great sense of getting control back over my health + it is really necessary if you want to manage diet as a main control in gout.
Meanwhile, try to persist with the AlloP- it's always darkest before the dawn and, later, you should be able to try a cutback in dose -if it really is not helping with other issues.
Keep going Bud!
At the moment- due to trying to balance a good gout diet with weight loss & staying mostly vegetarian the Hay approach has had to take a back seat.
It makes diet too complicated -and mostly clashes with Leptin diet considerations which are also important in my list. That one particularly wants split snacks/meals @ 6 a day.
The one major result of this initail trial was good though…..
It made me realise that the only way to accomodate all the elements was to eat absolutely loads of veg as that is the only thing allowed with both Carbs and Protein in any amount.
This is consumately healthy- more reports than ever stress the need to eat more veg for health -so Hay still has relevance for both general health and gout diet [weight loss+ plus allowable veg purines].
Just an update- I haven't forgotten my search on this Leptin thing.
I know Mercola isn't to everyones taste [Zip?}- but this article:
articles.mercola.com/si…..mmentfocus
discusses an interesting link between Leptin, insulin, ghrelin and sucrose in the pursuit of weight loss.
It's not in great depth- but these connections seem very little discussed generally- and make me wonder if there isn't sometimes a conspiracy of silence over diet and food choices involved in health issues.
Next to Oil/Pharma- food is an even more necessary input for life and must get 'big biz distortions'. A lot of money is tied up in production/distribution & supply.
Maybe sugar will be taxed soon- if world finances keep going wrong?
It's not unlike alcohol and 'Baccy, really.
I'm no biologist, but from what I know the crystal growth may need the space afforded in joints by the synovial fluid. If they tried to form in tissue they may have a harder job- as there won't be loads of free UA floating by to attach to the crystal.
Niether will other cells like the UA and quite possibly allow WB Cells to do their job before the UA 'clumps'..
A laymans view – what do others think?
Maybe once tissue elsewhere has been invaded- it then provides a home for UA to deposit [cyst like?] and attacks in joints may then reduce.
Should that be 'Nobble'
-or am I thinking racehorses?The negative link between Gout and MS springs to mind-in humans btw, very odd!
When I recently told my Doc that Colchicine was an immune suppressant- he said No, it wasn't.
OK, an immune killer then?
This was after the reaction with a statin drug which are not recommended to go with immune suppressants- so I assumed that was the catch- and it was NOT a good combo!
I've always thought, though- that it can take a couple of days for the WBC count to drop- so I think your TV plot was using rather a lot of artistic licence, but at the doses you use Zip, maybe not!
PS: If AlloP is doing a good job for you- why the Colch still?
Utube is right- you need to know your SUA figure and I suspect it's high.
Anyway, guesses do no good -and neither will lifestyle changes do much short term. 3 weeks is plenty long enough for an attack and really you need further medical advice as to why you have got such sudden severe attacks.
If you are getting injuries maybe you're over stressing joints or suffering fatigue on top of gout weariness.
Either way, you must get to grips with it medically as advice here can only assist -not replace this need. Many co-factors can affect follow up, like your age,Blood Pressure, BMI and diet- but SUA test is a must.
In Ireland it is a tradition on St Patrick's day to serve 239 bean soup.
Aye, 239 bean soup, because one more would be two-farty
Interesting point from Wiki:
Delphinidin, like nearly all other anthocyanidins, is pH sensitive, and changes from blue in basic solution to red in acidic solution.
I've been cursing ASK.com hijacking my searches lately- but it did lead to an article about some young lads being poisoned by RAW common, or possibly dried beans, listing Phasin, a toxalbumin destroyed by cooking, as considered responsible.They all recovered, amyway, after sickness and the runs- in a day. Phasin sounds like it might hang around Phaseous plants somehow!
The Wiki link given also says that soaking and discarding prior to cooking is not strictly needed and is done to remove complex sugars that can cause flatulence in those not hardened by a veggie diet π
It also mentions 60ugm of arsenic possible in a 200 gm [non specific] bean batch but if Napoleon could take it- so can I! There's quite a lot in apple pips, as I remember.
I've just finished a batch, to restock, [no attack, btw] -and thought to mention that to stretch the batch , I now add a cup of boiled water to the newly strained beans and whoosh round to get quite a good second 'mini batch' from the kernels and husks.
Finally on the already mention BB soup run- I make sure to take with a good wholemeal toast as grains are known to inhibit absorption of iron.
Men- if you take supplements make sure this element [Fe] is absent or minimal- you'll have a job to find one!
Julia – I think we can all feel a bit guilty about obsessing over Gout, but it's so painful and neglected in general , that past histories, current experience sharing and future planning against the beasts' [lack of a] future is a must!
The holistic path is a bit harder to navigate as there are so many variables and a few risks.
One such is this comment on 'reasons for cooking BB so long'. I've mentioned lectins before but forgotten the details. Good to get a nail on this, once and for all.
You have identified Delphinidin on the 'goodies side' – I must check it out [at the oracle?]
Good to hear some success on the BP after the BiCarb- and the gout too this week?
One good thing is -once my attacks go , normal activities can soon be resumed though with not a little trepidation, on occasion!
You will need a good boiler these coming weeks.
To keep a balance on this hormone business, the diet I was on used soy as a major protein source as meal replacements. Not sure about BB- but intermittent use would be worth living with- just pointing out it could be an issue. I suspect the bean itself is the major source of hormones.
Further, female hormone estrogen is now being proven in trials to assist in prostate cancer treatment. Apparently, male testosterone converts into something nasty without it's assistance under this illness. Aint life complicated! (oops -I meant wunnerful π
I'm trying to settle to a quiet life- but going mad around the planet is a bit habit forming after a lifetime π
I've just cracked out an old batch of BBB from the freezer- I've done mushrooms, prawn curry, beer , wine, whisky and been sedentary with the the snow, so motto- Be prepared!
I've backed off the 1/4 dose Bendros and put up with the Lasix ear hiss increasing pro tem.[BP meds]
The toes are doing their crab signalling bit and I never ignore this little gift from the Gout Fairy- especially around Xmas time! Panto season is not yet over…
Interesting find on the figures Julia.
Be aware that Soya beans have a hidden extra that your man may not like overmuch- phytoestrogens which can be a tad feminising. I used to use a diet based on Soya and definitely found a drop off in the 'downstairs arena' after a while on it- so I stopped.
Still 10 to1 is a big write down -so maybe it's gout or a quiet life? π
No doubt Meta with his long exp. of BB will come to the rescue on the figures- they do seem rather heavily skewed to what I remember reading. I think I would have flagged up such figures, if found in passing.
One other thing – the alkalising use Soda additive is via Soda BiCarb- not baking powder as you mentioned- which has other additives, as well as BiCarb, in it.
It is recommended to be used with Docs advice in cases of High BP, due to sodium content- but used with a low salt diet seems a good compromise to me, though I've never used it myself,as yet.
My preference would be to use low dosage anyway over some days rather than a blitz during an attack.
Sue- I think the BBB (NB: No beans actually eaten) is best kept for the attacks- certainly at the heavy dosage level.
If it's effective during attacks- best keep it in reserve for that use.
Probalby does no harm to have it in between attacks though- but it does mean a lot of prepping unless you freeze it. The BBB post is long but worth working through if you can!
You def. need to get your blood tested to monitor progress.
I worked many years with Gout, self employed driving, wore sandals a LOT- and hobbled.
If your job really needs mobility and you want sure results the meds are maybe the best long term option but can be tailored down- if you can manage it later.
Once started though , meds will make it less easy to gauge results. if you have the time- good luck with BBB and getting an initial 6 to 8.5 mg/dl on your SUA -which will allow some time to work on the issue.
Note this level is considered 'normal' by Docs. for 'NON gouties' and so it may be- but once an attack has occured, it is definitely no longer a normal level !
PS: Multiply above by 59 for umol. readings
@ metamorph said:
Too bad, I was not able to test/compare its effectiveness with my usual “recipe” because I did not have any gout flared up. My last flare-up had already been taken care of by earlier doses of BBB.
Why not freeze the batch Meta? I find it helpful and keep batch covered to cool and pot in an old Sainsburys thick plastic soup bottles with a screw lid ,then freeze down.
Indelible marker pens seems ok in the freezer for noting your trials on the batches.-After all that work ,too!
I will definitely try the all-in-one soakwater next time – the first soak does carry a lot of purple colour and seems a shame to water down the good effects, if that's what is happening here.
On the ginger front- it is highly lauded as a health additive and grated in at the end will save too much evaporation taking place.
Like garlic and hot peppers – a lot of the good effects are carried in volatile oil fractions which get dispersed all to readily in the heat. So don't boil the soups off, either!
PS: This post tacked onto |Jims' earlier one in some strange way- so I've reposted.
metamorph said:
Too bad, I was not able to test/compare its effectiveness with my usual “recipe” because I did not have any gout flared up. My last flare-up had already been taken care of by earlier doses of BBB.
Why not freeze the batch Meta? I find it helpful and keep batch covered to cool and pot in an old Sainsburys thick plastic soup bottles with a screw lid ,then freeze down.
Indelible marker pens seems ok in the freezer for noting your trials on the batches.-After all that work ,too! π
I will definitely try the all-in-one soakwater next time as the first soak does carry a lot of purple colour and seems a shame to water down the good effects, if that's what is happening here.
On the ginger front- it is highly lauded as a health additive and grated in at the end will save too much evaporation taking place.
Like garlic and hot peppers – a lot of the good effects are carried in volatile oil fractions which get dispersed all to readily in the heat. So don't boil the soups off, either!
Julia- try to get Black Turtle Beans , if you can. Pm me if you need help.
Trawling throught the reports [about 1/2 way down] Mets' refs. here- I found this:
“The effects of ProCyanidins are reminiscent of those of recognized intestinal secretagogues and suggest that the antinutrient effects of condensed tannins involve stimulation of intestinal secretion at the expense of absorption. The results argue against use of black bean broth or cooking liquor in rehydration media for treatment of secretory diarrhea.”
Looks like an 'anti-nutrient' mechanism that could affect the levels of urate in the gut.
It's known that excretion is the method of UA elimination and may explain some of the benefits in gout attacks.
I think anti- inflammatory effect probably more important though from earlier discussion on BBB.
My local health food shop bag Black Turtle beans up themselves and they are imported from China.They are not Soya beans and I think they are better for gout if you can get the P.Vulgaris by preference. I think Meta found Soya beans useful, though.
I still throw away the initial soak water [4 hrs only though!] as the health food 'bible' stressed throwing away the first soak was the thing to do.
Meta says don't bother , other than the rinse for grits and dust -and quite possibly, the risk is mimimal, if you do use this soak for the boil.
Who knows? – many variables could come into this. Kidney beans may be to blame for the bad reputation of unsoaked beans.
If I need to get heavy in an attack in the future (by using soak water)- I will mitigate my intake per dose, as usual, by spreading it through many [3 or 4] smaller doses in soup during the day.
Makes it more palatable also! This will be the usual British compromise π
The problem with gout not being topline for research effort is the genetic wild card.
Dietary control would be a major input if those vulnerrable to high SUA induced gout could be identified
Checking large sample SUA levels and advising against an unknown level of threat in general would not work well , anymore than obesity advice does.
Unless the genes predisposing to gout can be identified then the right patients won't be identified soon enough -and all that expensive & lengthy research would have to be driven by Gov't- as the meds usage for gout would shrink dramatically as new cases fell amd Pharma would be cutiing its' own throat!
If Obama had gout- it would be hushed up, or I am I my usual cynical self?
Keep it up Al !- many here have been through the torture and it does seem endless.
Don't forget egg cup of Soda biCarb in the foot soak bowl, even try an equal amount of Epsom Salts in the soak also but don't overdo it ,soaks or heat. Some can get absorbed through the skin.
My experience is that I've dropped back to one attack a year for the last two years [both max on the scale for pain ] after an average of 3 or 4.
This due to meds adjustment and reduction of stress/ exhaustion levels I reckon. [Not the threat of AlloP lurking in the cupboard!]
I agree that Wvpat needs to get a blood test of SUA to support coping with gout , with or without meds.
I think, as well, as a useful marker will indicate likelihood of ongoing success of preferred regime.
ie: Would need to be not excessively high- as Zip suggests.
@ Anyone else had this feeling?
Before I twigged I had gout- ie: got a good blast- I used to get half canned and then rip my sock off and peer at my big toe joint and wonder what was wrong with it. Glowing in the dark.
It's a shame that people aren't fore-warned about this , as 'early caught' would mean a lot less complications in many cases.
Now you are no longer a gout virgin- this doesn't matter too much- but…
The awareness of where you are heading in attack terms is still very dependant on signals like this.
Two factiors are very puzzling in gout- this sensitivity aspect mentioned with alcohol, which after all usually desensitizes nerve impulses -and the other what causes such pain- it must be connected to nerve function in some way and be natures way of requesting a 'slow down' of activity.
It's been mentioned before that gouties seem to be highly intelliigent, active achievers- so maybe it's what it takes to stop us π …apart from Bacchus- indeed.
WYVPAT, your experience echoes my thinking on gout.
Careful watching of of diet,exercise and alcohol intake coupled with swift responses can pay dividends.
There many ways to micromanage gout without necessarily resorting to meds for long term care.
However, this does include some risk that you will slowly lay down deposits of urate whilst floating around the 6+ marker of SUA. This may be a preferred choice to yet more meds, long term.
Blood tests would be needed to monitor how successful your efforts were, at least annually.
With increasing age, weight, BP etc. the balance will get harder to maintain-
I still hold back the meds till they absolutely must be used, but I'm mindful of the risks of high SUA, irrespective of attack frequency.
Keep up the good work Meta!
Even if people come and read and don't comment- it is still good copy.
In such a small sample as here, in terms of reportage, it is pretty hard to get useful data- but the main effect is to show people that, even though there may be unknowns in traditional palliatives, -continued use is not a problem for most.
A lot of useful food products can be toxic in large amounts (arsenic in almonds,apple pips,selenium in Brazils etc.?) but very few actually get a bad scare in reality.
So very good foods have to be understaood well. See Oxalates in almonds-
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage…..mp;dbid=20
On the BBB additive front- you may find chillie peppers have a plus factor- as well as keeping the curry withstand in tune
@ fish chips & mushy peas is still a must if you are British!
If you like Fish and Chips, you have plenty of company- but remember to ask for 'Skinless' fish [the chips are OK :]
I've done this trick for a few years now, as well as braving a few odd stares- and asking for a 'childs' portion. [Yorkshiremen excepted from this duty!]
[Helps planet and keeps price & weight gain down!]
I think the purines are mainly in the skin and it makes a difference for me- never noticed any tie in gout reaction – eating every week, pretty well.
Can't say the same for prawns, that's for sure.
Colchicine – @ 1 tablet every hour seems like a lot – is it safe?
My feeling is that it's only personally safe once you proved you can do the dose , like Zip.
Two hours between the first two and then 8 a day max for me.
12 max for course and then a few days break- as prescribed.
Obviously body weight affects dosages and particularly check any co-administered meds like Statins [ don't do!] as discussed here B4.
Trev4play- not
