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The paper referenced was a fair overview of gout meds. It gives the thumbs up for Vit C at 500mg/day which I often take anyway. This is not really a therapeutic dose by most standards – but ever little helps with gout, esp. if without Urate Lowering Drugs [ULD]
It's better known to me for anti free radical use {immune system] and also strengthening the vascular system-
Good if you get a lot of nose bleeds… but supplements ,in my book, are best used sparingly and given frequent breaks. Vit C has been reported to be capable of making the body lazy 'going forwards' after heavy supplementation- levels in fruit etc are very low compared those in tablets -so that is natural marker for what may be reasonable long term.
This is a 2 page report from 'Science Direct' [+ added refs] pdf -and OK.
Downloaded without problems.
I think it will be of interest to us, after taking a quick look.
B2- I've just had a stay overnight in our local Hospital and everyone is gagging to get home asap- Quite normal, and the procedures often seem to assist- I'll say no more.
On line it amuses me to see people state 'avoid all Drs and Hospitals like the plague' – not because I agree, but because I know where they are coming from. Misdiagnosis and treatment is a major contributor to illness and demise, like it or not. The figures are clear and a rather large minority, at that.
So , that is to say – I understand your mans attitude, though it is at the extreme end, to be sure.
You have undertaken the 'prime carer role' and it's impossible to fulfill this position without medical training, so as suggested here you are putting yourself under immense stress by being truly loyal.
Don't underestimate your power here though.
In my book you have to convince your hub that you will have to get help to help him. He does need medication from what you've said -and, even if you have medical knowledge and advice – there is still the psychological aspect involved here, with resistance to going forward positively and comfort zones being challenged.
Yes, you both need hepl in different ways and to get this needs some careful moves forward.
Gout is a long term, established problem and will give you still some little time to get a handle on your difficult situation.
You have started in a good place here, anyway! Get the best advice on all these issues, that you can find/afford – and hang on in there! Stay in touch.
Spot on, Odo-
In addition,I find the best soup to add in [up to] 50% depending on strength needed, is Winter Veg- unfortunately not found much this time of year.
In the UK, Covent Gdn. Soups have it in their range, but not sure if year round. [around £1+]
The earthy , rooty taste goes well with BB -and with the additives are half way to a liquid curry
-even a few beans straying in are Ok, with me.
Jim- I had something similar with my recent arthritis attack. On the final night [it only last 2 or 3 ] I was getting shooting pains in my knee and hip, which was also affected. Never had Gout here in five years, btw.
These were nerve twitches that were quite strong and made me jump some!
I hate to be obvious, but from this forum many have reported success with Black Bean broth, which doesn't cure the SUA problem [afaik] but certainly can work surprisingly well with the special discomfort regime that sets up with an attack.
It just seems to quiet a particular factor involved, in some way. I don't think I used it this last time, actually- but those nerve twinges only happened that last night and I didn't associate the other pains. with gout. So I missed the chance to try what I suggest to you.
Give it a try- but chuck the beans- just use the juice left after the 90 mins simmer and drain. If you do try – let us know result.
[PS: Search post current headlines page, for the details]
Hey!- that Capo vid reminds me of Latin soccer! :~)) -maybe the English team could try it?
Actually, it looks low impact and must strengthen the joint muscle support a lot- so a good gout program for that reason!
Parc- the weight loss could well have contributed to gout, but the good side is that you now have it flagged whilst still in the small toe.
The quick changes to lifestyle you've done will not change the big picture much- you next few readings of SUA will say more.
Keeping weight down and losing the beer will be a plus, medium term- but if your figures stay 11 -ish, urate lowering meds are pretty well unavoidable.
Contrary to many on this forum posting, I think even a level reduction in longterm meds is worthwhile- as there are many other benefits to diet control and not automatically reaching for the Big meds bag! With the right backup you can manage your program to minimise any side effects and benefit from better cardio vascular awareness too.
Gout is a metabolic, hereditary disorder which flags up and is exacerbated by other medical issues and you are right to take it seriously at your age, if a bit unlucky getting it so young.
Zip is right- but the timing of attacks is unknown. We all have to find our 'personal process' in gout!
Cramps are more likely due to salt or mineral defiiencies but this needs seperate evaluation.
You certainly don't want to encourage fluid retention, if borderline/or High BP, by arbitrarily increasing salt intake.
I believe diet and natural methods can assist in gout meaningfully, particularly at the 'lower SUA ball park'.
@ Zips' “Forget about the “natural” “cures.” They are as effective in curing gout as they are for curing cancer.”
That is your opinion Zip- but my experience shows readings as low is 4+ attained on diet and herbals versus a normal 7+ .
I'm not inventing this , so your approach to Meds the only way is not supported by my figures. I've not persisted at this regime due to still being attack free.*** NB
I will agree that a sure 'cure' via this method is unlikely, and certainly difficult to prove , as the old urate coming out of solution is not easy to attain or even monitor using diet only. Meds are not a 'cure' either- purely palliative to urate layup causing ongoing symptoms.
Many people reading this will want to hear of alternative methods -as we already know that the medical establishment can be a blunt instrument at least- and too often gets gout quite wrong in management approach.
So, though meds may be an obvious solution to those so minded, the options on other methods need to be kept open- or we just hand over to Pharma for good.
I do not intend this route for myself and many will agree, without having the in depth arguments to refute your approach.
Caveman- I got got gout progressing at around 60. Definitely keep the weoght off amd the exercise gentle but consistent- it will pay off once you settle your status gout-wise.
However, taking your own tests are a good way of grabbing back control from 'ol Gouty having a munch at you -which can become extremely wearing, if not depressing ,soon enough.
Two other factors implicated in gout are High BP and Stress- both of which factored in my case ,I'm sure.
Make sure you get good advice on your gout and weigh up options before jumping for meds- thought they are sometimes the only way to go.
At our age, there's a slightly bigger leeway and time , day to day, to evaluate and control our situation on lifestyle factors, but gout certainly won't be ignored for too long- it can be a debilitating crippler easily enough.
You sound like you will manage OK once you get your figures [and keep notes- ball park assessments of SUA 'normality' are not good enough ,when it has occured even just one time].
Hi Daniel !
I've tried Gout cure herbal remedy and got good initial figures with using it and the diet. However,I'm at the lower end of the SUA 'over- limit' so have some leeway in trial and error on this.
With your figure of 11+ I would say bite the bullet of using meds. They can always be stopped , if a problem – but high SUA is the bigger threat, as you know.
I worked out empirically, that the most I could hope for with the natural method was about 3 points on the scale [on a good day] and you need double that to get into a good region on SUA. The diet is quite hard to work, tbh- even for a non meat eater like me.
Further, if the herbal approach has any effect- then using it with other meds [like for BP] can be unknown territiory too.
From your tests it seems like you could be a poor excretor of urate, which AlloP covers- but alternatives could be used if this doesn't suit you, on use.
The one thing to watch is getting on a too low dose and going through extended periods of flares- but fear of the unknown is always somwething to beat down when facing up to gout. What is known, is it needs working on -at your readings. Good luck..
I blame Henry VIII – and he didn't take much exercise in later life, by all accounts [except of the horizontal type :~]
Thanks for that, Esab- and I thought gout was complicated, till I saw that pathway.
Mercola is not to Zips taste- I know, but he has a clinic and thousands of clients and if he needs to make money for that end, it doesn't make him different to anyone else, imo.
That pathway looks quite laboured- so I assume that doesn't make it necessarily a slow chemical process. Any idea on that timing?
Hi Kt- I've been reading up on gout triggers over a while and discussed soda type drinks here in the past- I think Zip likes them 😉
Recently I came across a good overview on Mercola that mentions Fructose as very bad for gout as it turns swiftly into uric acid, apparently!
As I've always gone on about alkalizing diet for gout help, and this means a high fruit content, I realised there was a contra-indication here.
The tables for fruit are quite clear,dried apricots and figs [less weight per calorie] are my weakness and top of the list @ 16.4 and 23 gms/cup.
As the daily fructose allowance for diet watchers is 25 gms per day (~2 bananas) – the other point in relation to booster drinks is that glucose accelerates the absorption of fructose- which can lead to increased insulin resistance and all that entails.
Glucose alone does not have this effect -so are the best option for drinks and tablets for energy , should you need these.
Snoopy- I just had a knee problem brought on by a insect bite reaction that was as bad as gout which I had many attacks over 5 years [till last year] in the ankles and toes.
This cleared with anti bios in 2 days and I was mobile quickly. It then re-ocurred in the same side knee cap due to over use, too quickly- that lasted a week but no inflammation, just puffy swelling quite pronounced though.
I think the gout lends a tendency to secondary problems, on this personal evidence.
From the sound of it you have gout building and the knees could be caused by something else , but worsened by immune flares related to the gouty condition. Just a thought, the Doc will hopefully pin this down- but the treatment of these co related conditions is not easy- the only certain thing is arthritic pain is pretty bad all round. Sympathy is no cure, of course- but at least you have company here!
I don't take meds for gout now- and can manage on the lower stress lifestyle of retirement ,and not using diuretics, so far.
Fluid intake kept up and the right diet also helps a lot.
I had something similar a month back.
I reckon the 2 day event was reactive arthritis due to infected bug bite [very gout like] -which passed off and I then walked the hills with care, only to kick in the kneecap for a week of swelling and pain. My fault for overdoing it. Dr. seemed to agree about the reactive bit- though it is a bit academic as event was over by then, apart from residual swelling.
Never previously had gout above ankle -or for less than a week, initially.
Plus the swelling was away from the severe pain centre in the initial attack, but not the longer second bit at the kneecap, which in any case was puffy [fluidic] tissue, rather than inflamed and firm as in gout.
I suspect having gout made the reaction worse, but it was not a normal response- as for gout.
Arthritis has to be on the table, then.
Still a bit academic, too- as both are from the same stable!
Quote: For some reason doctors do not like prescribing more than 2 colchicine’s per day. Dunno why.
From a ways back, I remember reading about a case of a child taking Colchicine for another illness ( familial fever of some sort) who died after 7 tabs and taking a lot of fruit juice (pineapple?). This is obviously a rare , special case, but enough to make Docs leery (me too, a bit) but if you need to do more that is certainly within precscribed limits, normally.
Many drugs don't like quite normal foods mixed in excess- and on top there's the fact that the immune sytem (which is involved in Colchiicine action) is also very much a variable between users, indeed like the response to gout itself.
I found out too late, that Colchicine does not mix with Statins either – but actually use niether of late , fortunately.
Jeff- No offense meant, I know you're fit 🙂 If you stop activity all that muscle will turn to you know what in no time.. so plenty of ' low level' activity and diet mods are needed while you sort this out!
I'm simliar weight and height to you and told to lose a stone- but nothing like your current fitness to hold me off on the body fat ratio.
Presumably you were on diuretics for BP needs, or was it- slimming? wicked grin <g>
Anyhow, I know what you mean about needing back-up from fellow sufferers- even when it's more widely understood one day, gout will still be a lone track when it kicks in hard. Nothing beats it for agony.
As a follow on- Beer= Baaad, you know that, and though you don't spund like a potential wine buff- it does have a health 'plus' at the glass or two level per day, and is not thought to worsen gout [by recent studies].
I did meet a fellow traveller last week who insisted the reverse was true, and he'd switched to beer instead of red wine. Everyone has both common traits -and personal vagaries, that break rules.
I find wine OK, and beer dead dodgy. So stop thinking about it- it's a giveaway as we all like what's bad for us.
You won't have to take up reading poetry, either 🙂
Hi Jeff- There's a lot to take in here. What you have been through with the diuretic echoes many experiences.
I would think your kideys have taken quite a knock. This has progressed to gout as it says on the label often enough.
With your SUA figures it looks like you're still in process of reducing it and suffering the usual trials.
Your fitness schedule is not helping your efforts here- with all that lactic acid competing for attention as well as urate reduction so I would trim back your program to the cycling & swimming only. The shock to joints of distance running to say nothing of wear and tear is huge and you really have to take stock of what you're asking your frame to do here. Walking is slower, but easier on joints tbh!
What about distance walking?
I reckon you could lose a few more lbs too, and have a better BMI- but 1lb a week is an ample loss target .You seem pretty fit, anyway!
On the twinge front- try Black Bean broth- it does work for me and others, but I don't take it every day myself- just when needed.
Herbal remedies are not lauded on here- but I'm currently trying a mix of them [without the pesky Magnesium Stearate component] , organic Tumeric, Milk Thistle and Artichoke. Garlic always on the menu.
Mainly, we all need time and loads of patience to deal with this curse of gout, but being kinder to your body is a big part here. Forget the money, your health is FAR more worth to you.
Look after the machine and it will look after you- at least the worst is hopefully behind you now!
It can take many months to break through the SUA build up [6 often mentioned here, as being likely] – Keep going..
Why not try the Colch starting Friday eve. – and run through the weekend as a trial?
A 'build up' on 2 /day will help stifle immune blow back a bit @work.
On the antibios- this reactive type of artritis can be associated with quite low level probs like conjunctivitis, urethritis and similar. Mine was simply due to an allergic reaction.
I'll shut up about it now.
My final rider is , as before – no reason why 2 probs can't co-exist. They certainly did with me recently, but the gout was only a mild flare, fortunately.
Believe me- the knee was dastardly painful- but for a short while ,for gout proper.
Hans- Try running it in a pop out player and listen while browsing.
There's some really novel angles on water facts that are worth persisting with.
This very important for Gout management. – I posted it initially as many on here are into body work, training etc. and being laid up with Gout the attendant slow muscle wastage will automatically start the drift to dehydration, as a matter of course. [4:1 trade down in water retention capabilities]
I've been out of commission for regular exercise for almost 3 months now and notice the run down- I need to get back fitter again, but as we know, the body won't be rushed.
Nate- I reckon a low level dose of Colchicine could help, without driving you liquid.
I noticed that co-admin with statins made the effect much worse for me, btw.
On the meds issue- my recent point didn't seem to register:
I found antibiotics [surprisingly] stopped gout [10/10] pain in a day or two- and I was back walking normally, with reasonable care.
I overdid it, and got the knee. You may well have an undercurrent infection that is triggering a 'gout like' Reactive Arthritis, which my Doc [a gouty] admitted could have been the case with me.
It was almost, but not quite Gout, in my experience and I would never have thought antibios would have helped up front so effectively.
I hope you have a half decent day. Get a permit to use the executive facilities 🙂
Thanks for raising this Hans! I fail to see how a BBC audio on very good info about how water balance works in the body and a link to general advice on water intake from a medical source can be dis-info.
https://gout-pal.com/gout-p…..bbc/#p6424
Further, my whole point was, apropo Gout, was that too much water may be somewhat counterproductive, apart from urine output going high, coupled with the need to keep levels up with age.
Zip followed up with a good overview on the throughput process which backed this up.
Blood volume is controlled ONLY by sodium concentration. It is held constant in a very narrow range. Something like a 20% swing from the norm will cause coma or death. The body holds this concentration an unwavering constant with an iron determination.
Therefore Sodium intake is as important as water. Also diuretics come into the picture for gouties.
Now the post has been turned off due to a poster misreading well intended content , I was not going to resurrect this important topic, feeling rather deflated by all this.
Further, I wasn't aware the BBC put blocks on foreign listeners- but in any case I gave a round up of the main points as I saw them of interest to people trying get water intake right. This is very much a gouty thing!
I hope discussion can proceed under our usual gentlemanly rules..
@Link: …careful dosing of nephrotoxic drugs is required.
Aaah- That explains the medics' relief on GFR result after trying about 12 different BP meds last year- most of which seem to knock the stuffing out of kidneys…
For all the warnings on the labels, this seems a neglected follow up on meds for BP unless pushed for, fairly relentlessly, by the patient.
VG- On the last point- It's quite usual to have [very] acid urine readings first thing, am.
If you get any over 7 later on in the day, that's good [due to your diet].
I find it impossible to get anywhere near 7 anytime- but a slow lift from acid is usual, through the day.
On the kidneys, a recent check over I had came up with a good GFR, or filtration capability which I didn't even realise I'd been tested for- but the specialist looked pleased- and me a little blank!
Good luck with the testing..
Yep Nate!-
I appreciate you can't take weeks off, but from intense pain I had similar I was back walking strangely quickly. I was shouting out so loud at night [10 days back] I thought I'd disturb the neighbours too! [Apparently not, though-I checked later]
In only 2 days it had reduced – so much, I couldn't really figure it.
The only thing I took apart from painkillers was the Erythromycin antibiotic. That seemed to help co- incidentally, though overdoing the getting back stirred up more pain in knee that still lingers now.
My feeling that it was 'gout like' only still lingers and an infectious agent can't be ruled out to my thinking- for my situation. I only highlight this as there seems to be similarities in our episodes.
I hope painkillers do the job for you.
Nate- I was in your position (to some degree) last week. I still have a swollen knee area and a picture still rather like yours one week later- but now I'm mobile and free of major pain.
I could then, barely drive an automatic car to the surgery. No way could I manage a clutch pedal.
2 days later I was in the hills. One day after that -struggling to walk again with kneecap pain.
The thing that helped was rest and time to let swelling go down. The fluid retention is protection to some degree and it may start to travel as mine did. Will aspiration really help in this?
I'm posting another thread on water in the body after an interesting radio item made me review my thinking on extra water intake greater than a litre+ per day.
I hope you get some sense from the medics- but nature does quite a good job – given a fair chance!
Deleted: Duplicate post [not sure how that happened]
Heck- now there's wasted space I'll give the comparison just for company.. this, one week later after initial pain in joint to the L. knee side- finally ended in the kneecap. This is strange compared to any other 'gouty' episode for me.
Never, either been above the ankle- except for general joint soreness etc.
Nate- Commiserations… I've just been through something similar with a knee that simulated a torn cartilege of 20 years past, which was operated on by keyhole surgery then.
However this time the knee cap externally was very tender -which differentiated it.
I'm still not sure what went on this time- but that insect bite seems to have triggered an alternative mode of reaction to normal gout and hasn't lasted as long. [3- 4 days]
I have traditional niggles in old toe sites that are just 'warning me', otherwise.
What I see is that one size doesn't necessarily fit all, both with presenting and managing gout.
One thing, too- is that now I have retired and can rest, my body has a fighting chance to roll off gout type issues & recover. This is a big factor in gout as a whole.
A poster a while back picked up on this- I can't remember his name. In Aus. I think!
Get some serious rest, keep life simple and bear in mind you are under assault . Meds, however helpful and necessary, will demand more of your body too.
You need a mental strategy to cordon off stares, pressures and expectations from yourself and others ! I would guess family finances can't take a major break from work duties.
A current mention of Reiters Syndrome [inc. triggers by infection] caught my eye – No reason why this and Gout can't co-exist, but the info is apparently hard to come by [GP].
Thanks Guys, for your heartfelts!
A few points to update:
Swab was clear.
This is not the first time I've had a bad SITE reaction to a bite or needed Anti-bios to treat – but the first time such a thing has triggered joint flare elsewhere [a' la Gout].
I did over a mile in the hills yesterday, over keen to get some 'fresh', and also a 'friend' to entertain.
Of course, my same side kneecap is complaining badly today!! Don't say gouties wuss out
Hopefully this will settle soon, as before- but the thing is [and thanks for the chin up Zip !] that I think these sensitive new areas ARE due to urate deposits. I hate to admit to it!
This is going into the notebook as a possible reason to try AlloP – IF, and only if, I can't maintain the good years' progress to date. That is still open to proving.
I'm not calling this last lot of pain 'attacks' or even 'flares' as they had big external assistance , in the reaction to the bite- and settled out extremely quickly, to be normal gouty behaviour.
When the swelling actually moved to my left foot yesterday AM- it did not trigger more than very minimally, old [and markedly, very recent] flare sites there.
My SUA readings have been around the upper 6's of late. If they'd been towards 8 [as when on diuretics] I don't think things this time would have been helped to the good in any way.
To people unaware of gout and the sheer pain- these notes may seem somewhat obscure , but to the cogniscenti – all grist to the mill.
It highlights the extreme sensitivity of the immune system, once 'gouted' , very clearly.
PS: To prove that the trip was worthwhile , here's a shot of them thar' hills..
